Tuesday, November 21, 2023

A lay person’s discussion of the difference between agnostic and atheist; and further thoughts

 

I by no means am a theologian, apologist, or even moderately educated in religion, however I do have some thoughts on this subject that have consumed by brain on occasion. And tonight is one of those occasions so for my benefit I am attempting to write them down. I do this because it consumed by thoughts for a bit this evening and I want to see if I can expound on them to see if I can make sense of this madness permeating my thoughts. Also I do feel that general comparison do not get to the heart of the problem and also really address that if you believe which is worse.

So to start some basic definitions or explanations, an agnostic according to one source (Oxford definition)  is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

And I stress it is important to note the last sentence. I will come back to this point.

Atheism or atheists is in some cases broken down into various distinctions. Generally most people will define atheism has the belief there is no God. One resource not identified in my internet search says there is implicit atheism and explicit atheism and goes on to identify positive and negative atheism. This might be much for my thoughts tonight, yet I did want to mention that some identify more to atheism than I want to travel through.

And the definition of agnostic mentioned above is generally how I view it and so my off and on internal ramblings and arguments have stuck with this approach. Atheism though I have always viewed as more of an active approach to the belief in God and that their active approach I treat differently than the viewpoint that discusses the various distinctions mentioned above.

To me an atheist believes in God, that person is fighting that belief. Now at what level is where it gets murky. Or may I should phrase it an atheist is the active disbelief in God, however to disbelieve are you not denying existence and if you are denying existence then the act of denial is fighting against acceptance. Now even to me this argument does appear somewhat circular, however bear with me as an amateur writer to get to my point. I truly believe this thought and I cannot think of a better way to phrase it at the moment. Yet to fight against something means you are fighting it. So if you say no God exists, why does it matter to you to vocally denounce it. Unless there is something that is driving you to deny the existence.

I think people forget the fallen angel, Lucifer, the evil one or however you want to identify this entity not only believes in God, but is on a campaign to destroy God. Yet this is not the same as an atheist, but this entity may play a factor in why an atheist is an atheist or at least for some. Some atheists just may not want to own up to the fact that if you believe in God you must follow God. And most people that believe in God or the Judeo Christian world knows how hard it is to follow God. No small feat to live according to the teachings of God. Throw in the concept of faith and mysteries and your brain is mush in no time.

Let me get back on topic. An atheist can be what is described above as an implicit atheist or “the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it” (again there is a reference here, but I don’t have it and it is referencing another work. My apologies for the lack of thoroughness here). I do not believe though based on this reference that there is an implicit atheist. To me an atheist may be a person, but that person is a verb also. Their atheism is an action. They are creating action or wanting to create an action within someone else. This exact same argument can be made for a Christian, which tends to put an atheist as a person trying to convince someone there is no God. And here we are again. They are denying something, yet you have to believe it to exist to convince others not to believe in it.

A really bad example is saying that wonderful t bone steak you want to eat does not exist. I take the plate away and you no longer see it so why would you think you are going to eat it. And the way I phrased this sentence is important. To me atheists are wanting you to not believe in God because you cannot see, feel, touch, smell etc… God. There is no truth to a physical presence of God or none that can be identified or ascertained.

I work backwards here and as a teenager and long before I knew of St. Augustine I had a internal working knowledge of something St. Augustine said: “what you understand can’t possibly be God” As a teenager I struggled with religion, yet I believed in God. I didn’t articulate this as St. Augustine did, however I felt there was more to God than what I saw on TV from the tele evangelists or some of the churches I had attended. Church to me kept trying to define something that couldn’t be held essentially as if it could be held. And they worked hard at it. Now honestly I wasn’t catching onto the faith based arguments, and or maybe I couldn’t comprehend them. Which goes back to what you understand can’t possibly be God because God is beyond our comprehension. You hear God’s word, but until you realize where it derives or who is God is beyond our imagination. Some people try to manipulate your imagination and in doing so fail God.

And again back to topic. So why the big to do about the difference between agnostic and atheists tonight. For some reason I started thinking about which is worse, being an agnostic or being an atheist and surprisingly to me at the moment, yet the more I thought about it the more I felt I am correct. An atheist on the surface appears to be the worse of the two if you are a believer, however, remember I said they believe in God, they are trying to convince themselves and you not to believe. Hence their belief is misguided and can be addressed. I am not saying it will be easy because atheists can be true believers or in the case true non believers, so they tend to be entrenched into their believes. Yet, the argument is already in their brain so once past the entrenchment, another argument can be presented.

An agnostic has no belief. There is no argument, there is no denial, there is no existence or no reason to even contemplate the existence. The thought comes, the thought goes. Outside of curiosity or moving towards atheism an agnostic doesn’t care. And the not caring is the more dangerous aspect. Can you change a true (non) believer, possibly? Can you motivate someone who doesn’t care? Much harder. If the entity above is lazy then an agnostic is a best friend. An atheist for this entity takes constant work to keep them in line.

Just what this madness is about sometimes unsnaps a few synopsis.

And let’s move onto another topic that drives me mad. God is not liberal or conservative. These are man made constructs. So it irks the heck out of me when we get into the discussion of liberalism and conservatism in the Church. Does the Pope teach the faith, the magisterium, the sacraments, or is the Pope saying Jesus is not divine, not the Trinity, there is no apostolic tradition or any other tradition of the Church? That is how you tell if you the Pope is teaching and living the faith. If you do not agree with the Pope about certain people he is trying to reach out to and it pushes your acceptance of others, yes the Pope might be moving socially liberal points, but the Church does not become liberal because the Pope pushes buttons. If the Pope now says a marriage in the Church between two people of the same sex is now a sacrament then this Pope has strayed from the belief and should no longer be Pope. Adam and Eve defined marriage and is now a sacrament to further your communion with God. The Pope can say certain people need to be heard as people since it is our role as a Christian to reach out to those that need God in their lives. It is not our role to define whether a bishop or Pope is liberal or conservative as teachings of the Faith. Remember as Christians we are to love, even those that insult us, step on our toes, live a lifestyle not of our faith, and yes the proverbial enemy. We are not to judge. One of my favorite points in the Bible is after the people are told those that have not sinned throw the first stone the next moment is the people leave and the oldest are the first to leave. Yeah I ain’t young anymore so I can certainly understand where that is coming from. More importantly we are not God, we cannot judge. We can hold fast to our believes, our faith, our teaching, yet being liberal or conservative is not part of the Church. We pray for each other, not label each other. And if you ask me, if you are labeling either way, maybe it is time you spent some time with God, not man.

Finally to Bishop Barron. I have all the respect in the world for you and have enjoyed what you have done to further my knowledge of our faith. However this certified yellow check idea is horrible. How can we know the saints if we assume only certain people know the word of God? Hope you think about it. Goes back to the argument above, if the Pope loses it, who are we to trust unless we can identify the Pope or a Bishop has lost their way. And I am not talking about me, this post is definitely one man’s opinion, yet who is to say one person may come along that knows more or more specifically taught more than all of us. Would Moses get a yellow check?

 

Happy birthday Mom

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